The Upside of Bipolar: Conversations on the Road to Wellness
Living with bipolar disorder sucks! Each week Michelle Reittinger and her guests explore tools and resources that help you learn how to live well with your bipolar. If you are tired of suffering and want to live a healthy, balanced, productive life with your bipolar, this podcast was designed with you in mind.
The Upside of Bipolar: Conversations on the Road to Wellness
EP 61: Love, Resilience, and Bipolar Disorder: Travis and Sue Best’s Journey of Healing and Hope
Don't miss this episode! Travis Best, a member of the Upsiders' Tribe recovery program, and his wife Sue share their journey navigating the challenges of bipolar disorder within their marriage. They highlight the profound impact of community, communication, and therapeutic resources. With candid reflections on symptoms, medication struggles, and the importance of mutual support, they emphasize that while healing is challenging, it is possible to find hope and rebuild relationships.
• Travis’s experience with bipolar diagnosis and childhood trauma
• Experience transitioning from medications to micronutrients
• Recognizing and managing delusions (one of Travis's symptoms)
• Sue’s perspective on being a caregiver and the need for support
• Importance of setting healthy boundaries and effective communication
• Navigating the dual challenges of bipolar symptoms and cancer
• Building community connections for emotional resilience
• The power of hope in transforming lives and relationships
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I'm really glad that in your mood cycle survival guide it includes who can I reach out to, because the spouse cannot be the only person. It's too heavy, it's way too heavy, and you know for me to have people that I can reach out to and say, hey, travis is not okay. Can you please reach out to him? You know we need help. That is huge. So thank you for including that.
Speaker 3:Hey, welcome to the Upside of Bipolar conversations on the road to wellness. I am so excited that you decided to join me today. We're a community learning how to live well with bipolar disorder and we reject that. The best we can expect is learning how to suffer well with it. I'm your host, michelle Reitinger of MyUpsideOfDowncom, where I help people with bipolar disorder use the map to wellness to live healthy, balanced, productive lives. Welcome to the conversation. Hey, welcome to the Upside of Bipolar. I am your host, michelle Reitinger, and I am thrilled. Today I have some really unique guests. This is Travis and Sue Best, and they are actually part of the Upsiders Tribe, my program, where I help coach people through the healing process, and I'm so thrilled that they volunteered to be on the podcast today because I think that their experience is going to be really helpful to you. So, without further ado, why don't we start with your story, travis, and then Sue?
Speaker 2:Yay. So, michelle, first of all, thanks for hosting us. We really appreciate it and hopefully this is helpful. I was diagnosed with bipolar in 2015. We were married in 2005, December of 05.
Speaker 2:And even before diagnosis, like in hindsight, I really didn't understand this. But my father doesn't manage his moods like well at all. I mean, he was diagnosed with bipolar but refused to take medication. That's after I was diagnosed and he still, to this day, has issues managing his mood. So I lived in hindsight.
Speaker 2:What I would say is an abusive childhood. I was never physically abused, but was yelled at was words to her. I didn't even know that existed until Sue and I got married. So fast forward to us being married, I was even before our marriage. I drank a lot. That's just how I managed life, just really with alcohol, with alcohol and a lot of pornography, sexual-related stuff. That's just how I numbed my emotions and how I managed emotions, and at the time I didn't realize it's what I was doing. That's just the life that I was living. And I have bipolar. I say have bipolar too. I don't even like.
Speaker 2:Through you I've learned that bipolar really is just a made up, made up word to describe a list of symptoms and I like. And then I remember when you told me that I confirmed it with my psychiatrist he's like yep, that's it. We just created something that has this list of symptoms. And when someone has that list of symptoms, that's the diagnosis, we give it and that drives the treatment plan. And we give you a med and hope that it works, and if it doesn't, then we give you another med and finally we find a med that maybe works, and then when it stops working, we up the dose or we change your meds. I mean, it's just like when he had a really frank conversation with me, I was just like, wow, this is like they're just throwing darts at a board and hoping to hit the right thing, which just makes me so sad for anybody that suffers with mental illness and suffers in the traditional route, because I, when I got medicated, in hindsight I went on Lomictal in 2015.
Speaker 2:In hindsight, I went on Lamictal in 2015 and in hindsight, like at the time, I thought things were better. In hindsight, they were just different. They really weren't better, but because it was different, there was kind of a season of adjustment of me like, oh, wow, this is like. Oh, my goodness, this pill has helped me so much and then at some point it really, really really didn't help. I mean, I was like I was pre-diagnosis, I was suicidal and would have. I remember telling Sue one night that I would have committed myself to a middle institution if we didn't have kids, but I didn't want to do that with kids at home, to a mental institution if we didn't have kids, but I didn't want to do that with kids at home. And then, on the mictal, there were times that I was suicidal and probably would have committed myself to a mental institution if we didn't have kids at home. So it really didn't. It didn't change a lot. It just it was just taking the pill made, made things different for a little while. And because it was different, it's like, oh wow, I'm better now. But then in hindsight, like that really was maybe three to six months before, like the different wore off and like the same patterns and everything kind of revolved or came back. And then I stumbled across you a couple of years ago now, I think a year and a half ago and through the relationship with you, one year, it's only been a year, it's only been a year, wow. So through the relationship with you we got introduced to True Hope.
Speaker 2:I came off of Lamentel this year it was about a three month process Came off of Lamentel and went on to True Hope. I came off of Lamictal this year it was about a three-month process Came off of Lamictal and went on to True Hope. That was a very, very rough it wasn't a rough 90 days. I would be fine for two weeks and then I would become extremely unstable for two to four days and it was a very hard two to four days and then I'd stabilize for two weeks and then have a very hard two to four days. And you helped us kind of recognize that pattern and once we realized that pattern, things got easier to manage. It was still crazy but at least we knew it was coming, we knew what to expect and we had things set in place to help manage the craziness that I would go through for two to four days.
Speaker 2:When I finally came completely off of Lamictal and was on true hope only it had probably been a week. And I look back at my life and I was like, oh my goodness, I've lived a delusion. Back at my life and I was like, oh my goodness, I've lived a delusion. And really I know that sounds weird because I remember thinking before this how could somebody live a delusion? What does that even mean? And then I was like, oh my goodness, I've lived a delusion because I thought that Sue would rather be married to someone else other than me. And that was a belief that I had and, pre being on True Hope, I could have given you 20 reasons why it was true. And anybody that knows Sue and I knows that she loves me to death. She's not done anything to create that delusion.
Speaker 2:But when I was living that delusion, I really believed it. I just, in the core of who I was, I thought Sue wanted to be married to someone else. And that was kind of the, the lens that I looked at the world through and and that may seem like a really small detail, but like that was my, like that was my belief that drove everything. I mean I could have asked Sue like, hey, I'm thinking about going and I don't know going and doing X, y Z, like whatever I'm doing doesn't matter, but I want to go do X, y Z, what do you think? And Sue would go ooh, I don't think that's a good idea because of ABC, and she's just being a protective wife because she knows that whatever I've said it's not a good idea. Well, my lens is like if she were married to that other guy, she'd support him. She would think that him doing this would be a great idea. She has an issue with me doing it. She thinks I'm not good enough. And there you go away away with that rabbit.
Speaker 2:And that was literally that one belief touched every part of my life in ways that is just mind-blowing. So I came off Lamictal. Within a week of being completely off of Lamictal, I was like what was I thinking? That was a delusion that I lived. And it was really freeing to realize that. And I remember telling like not just once, but like we just had lots of conversations about that and it's like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry that I've that. I believe this. I don't know what. My like don't know what was going on. It's not true, we're good. That was in July.
Speaker 2:So in late September a little bump appeared above my left ear and I went and got it boxed and I found out that I have cancer and through two misdiagnoses, on the third diagnosis they got it correct. I had stage four melanoma with a tumor above my left ear and all my lymph nodes on the left side of my neck and two tumors in my left lung. So not a, I guess, pretty scary prognosis. I'm in the process of being treated for that and we've had great, great. The tumors have responded to it really good. I know you know us, michelle, I mean the viewers. You can see there's a tumor there, but that tumor was like when it was worse. You could see it like this because my ear was like pushed out and you would see the tumor. It was terrible. So it's responding great to treatment.
Speaker 2:But the reason that's important or important piece of this puzzle is, as I've started the treatment I had to come off of TrueHelp supplements, not just TrueHelp supplements. The doctor had me stop any supplement that I want because he didn't know how it may interact with the immunotherapy and he didn't want to do anything that could prevent the immunotherapy from working, even though he's an amazing oncologist, very like he does studies on high-dose vitamin C. You know he's a very cutting-edge oncologist that understands maybe the prescription route is not always the way to go, but with my kind of cancer he's like this is immunotherapy is your best shot and we don't know how it interacts with any of the supplements you're on and he said it's not that I think it would interact poorly with them, it's that I don't know. So in order for you to have the best shot at saving your life, you need to come off all of the supplements. So now I'm at a point where, literally, I've been off of the supplements for four weeks Sue's much better with details than I am. So I've been off of the supplements for four weeks and then, because of some side effects from the immunotherapy, I had to change what I'm eating. Another piece is I had started eating keto, which definitely helps. At least it helped with my mood instability tremendously, and I know there's a lot of research. I think Dr Chris Palmer has a lot of research on that. So, but because of the side effects I'm having, I've had to go to a pretty carb heavy um, carb heavy diet right now, and that started about a week ago.
Speaker 2:I am having some, some symptoms, very specific delusional symptoms that started this morning and, like I know, right now there's symptoms. I know that it's. It's just an interesting perspective, having lived a delusion, come out from under that and be like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry, that's not true. Like, why did? I'm sorry that I did anything to harm you during our marriage because I've not been a nice guy at times because of my delusional beliefs.
Speaker 2:And then breaking free from that and now being back in a place where I can't take the supplements, I can't eat the things that I know I need to eat to assist my mental health, that I know I need to eat to to insist, my mental health, and now I'm becoming symptomatic and this morning I'm laying in bed and having very similar delusional thoughts I've had in the past and it's like I'm just laying there. I'm like, oh my goodness, this feels true right now, even though I know it's not like I'm at the same moment. I'm like it feels true and I know it's not like I'm at the same moment, like it feels true and I know it's not. So, um, I don't know if maybe Sue can give her perspective and we'll be glad to answer any questions that you may have based off.
Speaker 3:I've got lots of questions, but I want to hear Sue's story too.
Speaker 1:Oh goodness, um, wow, where to begin? Um, it's a lot, lot. Mental illness is a lot, and I think the thing that is the hardest about um mental illness is it's silent and it's not symptomatic from a visual perspective and because of that, you feel very alone a lot of the time without a good support system. Even with a good support system, there are times that I don't even want to reach out. I'm just like so weary I don't even want to reach out when Travis was diagnosed in 2015, was diagnosed in 2015. Part of that was because I was at a point where I was like this has been 10 years. It's getting worse. He'd never been physically abusive, but I became fearful about it. And between that and then also going, between that and then also going what are my daughters going to learn if I don't stand up for us? And I was very good, I'm very adaptive so I got very good at making sure that any of his anger was on me and our kids as much as possible. There's no way you can control all of it, but as much as possible I did.
Speaker 1:And, um, I was actually talking with um a mentor, and was talking to her, and she was um I was talking to her about growing my business and she's like well, how many appointments are you holding? I'm like, oh, I'm not holding appointments. And she goes well, why? And I'm like, oh, I can't leave my house. She's like, well, why can't you leave your house? I was like I will have kids at home and I need to make sure that I'm taken care of. Well, can't your husband take care of them? Oh, no, not at all, he can barely take care of himself. Like it's a problem. It's not a little problem, it's a big problem. And she said tell me more about that. And so I started telling her some of the things that happened. And she said well, what do you think it is?
Speaker 1:And my best friend, princess, and I, about a year before, maybe two years before, when we were out of town, we were at a leadership conference. When we were out of town, we were at a leadership conference. I was like I really think he's bipolar. And then she goes well, have you told him? I'm like, no, I'm not telling him that. I'm like it's bad enough already. I sure don't need to hear anything else. So fast forward to this conversation with my mentor. And I was talking to her and she said well, what do you think it is? And I said I really think he's bipolar, because so many things don't make sense. And she goes well, have you told him?
Speaker 1:And I was like no absolutely not, I'm like I'm really good at skirting around stuff, no. And so, anyway, she said, well, do you think if it's chemical? He, she said, you know, does he believe in medicine? And I was like, oh yeah, he believes in medicine. And she said, well, do you think that he would go see someone if you said can we go and talk to somebody to eliminate the possibility that it's chemical? And I truly believe that God gave her those words to give to me. And I said I don't know, but I can say that I can't say that.
Speaker 1:So, funny enough, we were supposed to go to a night of worship that night and instead we went to a restaurant and I can still remember where we were sitting and we were talking and I just, you know, asked him the question. I told him I was talking to Nan that day and he said well, what did y'all talk about? And I said well, here's one of the things. And she asked if you would consider going to see if it could be chemical. And he's like, yeah, I'll go. Travis said, yeah, I'll go. And she said something that really took me aback. She said his quality of life must be terrible. Now, i'm'm gonna be honest, I had never considered his quality of life. Yeah, it's my sucks.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just like well, because you're in survival mode constantly, and so when you're in survival mode, you can't think outside yourself Like you're not. There's no room for empathy. You're just trying to survive and protect your children. Right, exactly.
Speaker 1:It was 100% about surviving and, yes, and protecting the girls. One hundred, yeah, that's it, that was my life. And so, anyways, it was very odd because we we rode around after that and we were just driving and he's like are you basically just happy all the time? And I'm like, well, yeah, and I was feeling real brave that night. I was like, yeah, unless I'm around you I'm really happy. And I was feeling real brave that night. I was like, yeah, unless I'm around you I'm really happy. I'm like, but like it's really stressful.
Speaker 1:And he's like, I don't know what that means. He's like I don't know what it means to be happy. He's like do you, you know, can you be entertained by anything? I was like, oh yeah, I was like I can watch a bug walk across the floor and find wonder in it. Like you know, I don't need entertainment, you know. So, anyways, it was very interesting and that kind of started our journey. One thing that was very interesting when, you know, we went to see a psychiatrist. That was recommended, and when we were there, travis starts talking about his childhood and I was like, when we were there, travis starts talking about his childhood and I was like, and I'm sitting there going tell him about the bad place and, like his head whipped around, he's like what bad place? So it only took about 10 minutes of Travis you know him asking Travis questions and Travis answering to go Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she also. Let's be real, she started answering the questions on my behalf. The psychiatrist was leaning more on her than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because he would ask a question and Travis would say no, and I was like, actually, this is, this is reality. And so and I think that's something that's super important to you If you are struggling with a mental illness, do not go anywhere by yourself. Just don't, because, you know, let somebody that loves you and has your best interest at heart join you, because if you don't, if you can't see reality, you can't communicate reality, and if you're not communicating reality, then help cannot be given in the right way. So that was really important. I will tell you, the biggest change I saw is Maris.
Speaker 1:Our daughter was three at the time. No, she was four Before that. She would let Travis not get near her, she wouldn't talk to him, she could be sitting beside of him, I could be halfway across the house and she'd say mom, will you get me some water? And he's like Maris, I'm right here beside of you. She's like, no, I want mom. So it's like she was very. But within three weeks of him being on a mood stabilizer, she came crawling in his lap and so that was something that was like, okay, we're on the right path, that there's a problem.
Speaker 1:That was like, okay, we're on the right path, that there's a problem. And then, as time went on, it was very obvious that things were not getting better.
Speaker 3:They were getting worse.
Speaker 1:I think it's nothing short of a miracle that Travis is still here. There are many times he walked out the door and I was like I really don't know if.
Speaker 1:I'll see him again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been a lot and I think you know we started on a very, very deep dive last December of all things bipolar and we started looking for resources. Because when he was diagnosed like nobody, there's no resources, because when he was diagnosed like nobody, there's no resources and there's, you know, there's very A, there's very few resources, b there are very few that are good, and C there are very few that you know are authentic and that really give you a true picture, and some are like oh well, you know, this is, there are methods, and if you say here that they're going to work, they're not because there's nothing proven. And you know, I'm just, I'm not that kind of researcher, I'm a let me find out all the things. And thankfully Travis is too. And so in doing our deep dive, he quickly found you and I think that is one of the greatest gifts from God ever on his healing journey, because that changed everything. He started joining you on Wednesday nights. He started doing his mood cycle survival. I love that in your program.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite things about your program is you do a check-in call every single month. Program is you do a check-in call every single month and I was included on those, and you know, just being able to check in and go how are things going and have dialogue, that mattered, was huge, was just absolutely huge, and you know. And then learning about true hope. Then learning about true hope, I will tell you, there's been many times that I've wondered if, if I would ever have a spouse that is, a partner, and so you introducing him to the resources that you've created, and then also True Hope and helping us navigate True Hope has meant everything.
Speaker 1:And July 12th was the last time he took Lamental. And after that we actually went away for the weekend at the end of August, went to a friend's cabin in the mountains and right before Helene crazy enough, a month before Helene happened Hurricane Helene and just devastated that area. But we were in, we were there, and you know you live in survival mode for so long. And then you've also got, you know, 19 years of PTSD on top of it, and the whole time we're there. I'm like, okay, I'm enjoying this, but when is the shoe going to drop? Because, because that's the first time that we have ever gone out of town together and he did not get sick and he did not get depressed. It is the first and only trip that we've had where he was stable, and so we had about 90 solid days of good stability.
Speaker 3:And then it all went to Hades.
Speaker 2:Which I do want to add to what Sue said about mental illness being a solid illness. We actually talked about it this morning. Like I was diagnosed, I was misdiagnosed twice. The second diagnosis they said there is no help For cancer. For cancer, I'm sorry. Yes, so recently. The cancer diagnosis Mis, sorry, yes, so recently, the cancer diagnosis misdiagnosed. They told me I had squamous cell carcinoma. Then they said, nevermind, you've got spindle cell neoplasm, there is no cure, it's very aggressive. We're offering you palliative care to make sure you're as comfortable as possible.
Speaker 2:And then there was three weeks before we found out no, I have melanoma. After we got another opinion at a different hospital. But during that three week time period I had accepted like hey, that that may be my reality, I might be gone. They didn't give me a time frame, but rare, aggressive, no treatment. I'm thinking six months. So I'm thinking I may not see my next birthday and I'm 46 years old. And I just kind of dealt with that like, ok, that might be my reality and if it is whatever's like, god may heal me, he may not, I may be gone in four months. I don't know and I had. I've kind of dealt with that so and I'm still like I have melanoma? There's no, even though I've responded to treatment really, really well. That doesn't mean that couldn't change in two months.
Speaker 2:And so I'm literally right now in the middle of a very real and public battle for my life, and this battle is way easier than the battle I fought with bipolar disorder. Like, the bipolar disorder battle was a thousand times harder than what I'm going through right now and I know that sounds real because cancer becomes a very public fight with if you share it with anybody. Everybody's like supportive and oh my goodness, how can I help any of you share a mental illness with somebody? It's people's intentions are good but they don't know what to do. Like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry you struggled with that. So let me get back to my life because I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2:So it's, I think, especially for someone in Sue's shoes, that's, people like she lives with a person who's verbally abusing her on a daily basis and blame it her for everything. Like any problem I had became Sue's fault. If she hadn't done X, y, z, this would all be okay with me. This is her fault and she just lived a very beat down life and there's just not support. There's not good support for people with mental illness and there's not good support for the loved ones the husbands, wives, kids, parents, the loved ones of people that suffer from some kind of mood instability or mental illness.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I. So I'm so excited to talk to you guys. There's so much here and I love that. I'm so thankful. I want to make sure my audience understands I did not approach you guys to do this. I would never do that to anybody in my group. So I don't want people to be afraid like come into the group and then I'm going to expose your life on the podcast. I'm very grateful that you offered to do this because I think that the biggest issue here that I look at when you were diagnosed, they were listening for symptoms. They weren't listening with curiosity for what caused the symptoms to occur in the first place.
Speaker 3:Right, and when you are struggling and you talk about right, and when you are struggling and you talk about you know, when you talk about alcohol and porn, those are coping mechanisms. Your brain was suffering. You had especially you know when you talk about your childhood. When we did our intake with each other, I asked you I always ask people tell me your story. I want to know your story.
Speaker 3:And when I asked you about childhood, you said you didn't remember a lot of your childhood and I'm like, oh, that's a clue. That's actually an indication there's probably trauma in your childhood. My children have holes in their memory. My son doesn't remember almost any of his childhood and I was very unstable during his childhood, and so there was a lot of. It's a trauma response for the the mind to just it compartmentalizes and then puts it away. But you have all of the coping mechanisms that are evidence of that trauma, and so what you were dealing with and one thing that you didn't mention that I wanted I want to just bring up also is that you were a firefighter, correct, and so you were going through sleep deprivation at the same time relating up up to your diagnosis, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I worked shift work for 11 years as a firefighter, 24 hour shifts, and sometimes I would get two hours of sleep, sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes eight hours, depending on the night.
Speaker 3:So we've got like multiple factors here. So you've got childhood trauma that caused emotional dysregulation and it's very common. There's two clues actually from your childhood. The fact that your dad got diagnosed with bipolar disorder indicates that there's probably a genetic predisposition to require higher levels of micronutrient support. That's one of the things that the research shows, right? The other thing is, is that who knows what your father went through in his childhood? There's probably intergenerational trauma, right, there's trauma that's getting passed down through the generation. So if there was any kind of trauma, you know issues with his father or his mother or you know his upbringing that could have led to emotional dysregulation for him and then he passes that on to you because he you have a very unstable childhood, probably a lot of you know and it's it's interesting this is not calling your dad out at all, but talking about.
Speaker 3:You know, like you said, I was the same way with my kids. I was emotionally and verbally abusive with my children because I was not well. So when my children were little and I didn't do it on purpose, like I was not consciously thinking I'm going to, you know, abuse my children. I was trying to survive. That you know. This was my reality and so that's. That was your experience, you know, with your wife and with your children. You were living in your reality and and um, so the, the alcohol and the porn were coping mechanisms that your brain was trying to find a way to make itself feel better, to cope with. You know, numb or, and both of those are actually numbing resources, and so when you went in for help, instead of having curiosity into the actual source of the symptoms there was, the only thing that was done was trying to treat the symptoms with mind altering, psychotropic drugs, right, and it's kind of like a fever. So if you, if somebody is running persistent fevers and they go into the doctor and the doctor says, oh, you've got fever disorder, we're going to give you anti inflammatories to bring the fever down for the rest of your life, we'd look at him like he was crazy, like you're no, like why do I have a fever? What's going on in my body that's causing a fever? But we don't understand that. That's the same thing for mental illness.
Speaker 3:When we're struggling with emotional dysregulation, when our brains aren't functioning in a healthy way, there needs to be curiosity about those underlying sources of symptoms, and I love what you said, travis, about how it was like you just woke up and recognized that you were living inside a delusion for all those years and it's so hard to explain to other people what that feels like. It was funny that you had this one of this very similar delusion to one that I experienced on a regular basis. I would have nightmares about my husband cheating on me all the time and I and I. It felt very real and I was so insecure and I was constantly needing validation and reassurance from him, and that gets old.
Speaker 3:Like you get to the point where you're like, oh my gosh, like stop saying that I love you. I don't want to keep trying to prove to you that I love you. I'm not interested in that woman at work. I'm not interested. You know I don't. I did not do those things that were in your dream. Like, please stop punishing me for things that I didn't actually. So let's talk a little bit about what it felt like to start rethinking your what a dot, what the diagnosis actually meant, because when you first came to me, you had actually already started on keto, right yes okay, so you had already found chris palmer's stuff and I.
Speaker 3:He has really great information out there. But one thing about that is it's just one little tiny piece of the puzzle, it's not the whole puzzle, right? And so you were starting to have some improvement, right? Yes, if I remember correctly I'm trying to remember it has been about a year, I think so you had found the keto. You'd started on the keto when you first started in the program, what you, what, what did it feel like to have to be rethinking it Like?
Speaker 3:Was that hard to stop thinking? Or was that kind of a relief? Because I know, when I, when you, the way you talked about the diagnosis, like you want to, you know there's something wrong with you, and so there's a little bit of relief, but also some apprehension, thinking, okay, what does that mean? Like, am I going to be sick for the rest of my life? Like, am I going to have these problems for the rest of my life? Or, you know, is there a way to actually make it better? And you so? Can you talk a little bit about that, about, like, what it felt like initially and did you have to come to grips with the bipolar diagnosis? And then what was it like when that paradigm was challenged?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure I can. I'd love to talk about that. But I'd love to talk about one other thing that you mentioned. That's my father and childhood Like and I think this is like Sue and I were talking this morning Not only does he have issues with mood instability, like the experience I had in my childhood, it was one where he spoke down to me all the time. I don't remember I'm sure he said good things about me. I don't remember him ever saying anything good about me. I could list many, many bad things he said about me when I was 18, like, fast forward, I'm an 18 year old kid.
Speaker 2:I go in a strip club with a friend and who's there? My dad's there, still married, my mom they're. They're now divorced, but not not because of this, like they got divorced later in life, and so now my dad and I are bonding at a strip club and then he has a conversation with me the next day like, hey, you don't need to tell your mom that, that's like you know, she doesn't need to know these things, and that's. We were kind of bonding over that. So the the bar that my dad set for me and I know this sounds so weird, but pretty much I'm a successful husband. I don't go to strip clubs and I don't since, like since we've been married or since we dated like that.
Speaker 2:I haven't done that, so that, so that's. My bar in life is if I'm a husband that doesn't go to a strip club. I've been successful when Sue's dad dad expresses love to her mom in a very healthy way. So I'm working off this bar and her dad has the bar up here and that creates a like and we literally just talked about that, I think, yesterday. It's like oh, my goodness, this is like I know I need to improve. Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to be a little funny to prove the point that like it's my goodness, this is like, like I know I need to improve. Don't get me wrong. I'm trying to be a little funny to prove the point that like it's not just the mood instability but it's the behaviors that that created in my father that made me think it was normal to just constantly look at your wife, because I don't remember him saying anything nice about my mom ever like ever.
Speaker 2:I don't remember him saying anything nice about my mom ever like ever. So what was norm for me was for my dad to complain about my mom in front of the kids and to her. So that became my. So I think there's the biological piece, but also just the kind of learned behavior. It's like just what is caught in your childhood. So then your question like I knew, probably before I was diagnosed, I was like ready to go to a mental institution but didn't want to because I had kids. And I think the same thing happened while I was on meds.
Speaker 2:I was at the point where I was not okay and I knew I wasn't okay, like, very specifically last July this is July of 2024, july of 2023, I think it was the 26th, 27th, 26th. If I had a gun in my hand, I wouldn't be here right now. I had a very, very bad night and that probably and I was on the leave of absence from the fire department because I knew that I could just tell I didn't need to be there. I wasn't sure why or what. I didn't realize it was the sleep deprivation and the stuff that I was being exposed to that was increasing my mood instability.
Speaker 2:But that was a point where I was like, oh my goodness, something's got to change, I don't know what. And so then I started probably in a hypomanic way Googling everything I could to find out as much as I could about bipolar, and eventually stumbled across you. And when I heard about True Hope, when I heard that you've been in your own True Hope and in remission, or whatever you want to call it, not, you don't have any symptoms of bipolar disorder and you haven't for, I think, what 15 years, is that right?
Speaker 3:Michelle, I started in 2010. But it was over time, like it's that's. It's a gradual process, healing all of the actual underlying sources of the symptoms, right. So once I got the medication out of the way, that was what opened the door to actually be able to do trauma processing and mindfulness meditation all the other things that actually healed the underlying sources of the symptoms Right.
Speaker 2:Yep. So, and that's what gave, that's what gave, that's what really gave me hope. And we did, we, um, when I came off of Lamictal, I did EMDR therapy. Um, I'm in your Upsiders tribe. You know it's not and I know you've already said this it's not just taking a True Hope supplement. This is not a. This isn't an easy. I take a supplement and my life is great. This is. I take a supplement and it gives me a foundation so that I can now do the other things to become the healthiest version of myself, so that I can be a better husband, a better father, a better neighbor, just a better person and, from a selfish standpoint, a happy person.
Speaker 3:I don't think that's selfish. I think that's human nature, like we don't want to live in a miserable existence, right no, and that's but the cancer diagnosis.
Speaker 2:To switch back to that like sue and I are both convinced, I'm convinced, if I was diagnosed with stage four um, anything, stage four, pick the cancer when I was on the mictal I would have said can it, can like, can we make it a week? You're saying months Can we shave it down to a week or maybe even a couple of days? Because I'm ready to go, I don't want to deal with this. So it's such a blessing that I found got stability, got on the supplements, came off Lamictal, went through EMDR therapy and started reprocessing a lot of stuff, realized I've been living a delusion and stopped living that delusion, stopped believing that delusion completely before getting this diagnosis. Because when I got this diagnosis I was like I want to live, like, like I haven't wanted to live for long but, but I want to live now, yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and I'm going to do anything that I can to be here, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, and one of the things I want to talk a little bit about is, a lot of times I don't know if you experienced this I'm going to ask you this question. I'll share my experience. It felt like it was an excuse, like I didn't like it. I didn't like the behavior that that I was, you know, especially like when I would have the bipolar rage and I would have, or you know, horrible outbursts with my children. I felt terrible about it.
Speaker 3:But at the same time, there was like this part of me that and even the doctors and my therapist sometimes would say well, it's not your fault. And so there was part of it that was like like I can't help it. I, you know, it's just, I'm doing the best that I can, but I can't help it. This is just, you know, my illness. So there's there's a little bit of Justification and kind of victimhood that goes along with the diagnosis and an expectation that everybody else just has to learn how to deal with it, because you're doing the best you can, you can't help it Right. Everybody else just has to learn how to deal with it. Because you're doing the best you can, you can't help it right. But there's also a part of you and I think that this is something that I've seen in you, travis is that it's not really their fault either. Just because it's not my fault doesn't mean that it's their fault and they shouldn't have to deal with the consequences.
Speaker 3:And I feel like you say that it's selfish. But I've seen in you a desire to live better for your wife. You want to preserve your marriage. You want to be a healthy husband for your wife. You want to be a healthy dad for your children, and that has been something that has driven my recovery as well is my desire to be the wife that I feel like my husband deserves and the mother that my children deserve. So do you feel like there has been any adjustment in the way that you think about the mother that my children deserve? So, was there. Do you feel like there has been any adjustment in your, in the way that you think about that, over this past year? Because did you experience that First of all? Was there, you know, any kind of victimhood mentality while you were living with the diagnosis and traditional treatment, and was there any shift in the way that you had you looked at things after that?
Speaker 2:Sue's laughing to the point. I think maybe she should answer the question. I'd love to hear her perspective first, then I'll give you mine.
Speaker 1:But there still is. There still is. We had an hour long conversation yesterday where he's still like I want to be better, I just don't know how, and it's very overwhelming. So I would say there's still that you know. Well, you know, can't you just change? You know, even today the words came out of his mouth, you know what I prefer, and still you're choosing to do something different.
Speaker 2:And I'm like oh, really, yeah, Wow.
Speaker 2:And it's so weird because that's like I think and Sue, like she can, clearly will agree or disagree with me during this podcast, which is fine Like I think that's a new thing. Over like the past week as I have I'm eating a lot of carbs, I'm not on supplements I didn't have energy to go walk, like I'm just now getting to where I feel like I could actually go out for a walk and it not wipe me out, yeah, so I feel like the things that Sue's saying are things that have just kind of, let's just say, the past seven days have kind of slowly crept back, I mean even like. As she says that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I was. That wasn't a nice thing to say, but at the time it felt like the right thing to say. And when I say that that's like, like, and I said it, and I haven't even given any second thought until she just said it, and now I'm like oh, wow, I am so sorry that I said that to you like, but that's but so here's here's.
Speaker 3:The thing, though, is that I experienced this myself and I, and it's something that I. I think this is one of the reasons why being in a group like ours is so beneficial, because, inside having an illness, it's inside your head. It colors your perception of everything, it colors the entire way you see the world and interact with everybody else, and when people would say things like, oh, it's all in your head, I'm like, yeah, it is. Like exactly, it is all in my head, Like this is my reality, this is what I'm living through, and so it takes time. You know we've talked about this before that our brains automatically default to the rut that we've lived in for, you know, 20 years or whatever, which is, you know, the kind of this victim mentality, this idea that other people need to shift to accommodate what we're struggling with, and and I don't mean that in a judgmental way, you know, but it's something that takes work. It takes effort to think okay, all right, Like.
Speaker 3:One of the things that we've talked about in the mood cycle survival guide is is what are your partners? So let's talk. I want to talk a little bit about that, actually, because that whole, the whole purpose of that guide is to take learn how to take responsibility for yourself. Right, it's identifying what kind of assistance you need, how to set healthy boundaries around that assistance, who are the people that you can ask for that help you know. Learning how to identify the symptoms and recognize them as symptoms. And learning how to manage your emotional resources and and what you can do to get back into a healthy, balanced mental state. Right, and when we first introduced that, it's really interesting actually to watch you go through the evolution of developing that guide for yourself, Because you do it at the beginning and then you kind of set it down and kind of forget about it, and so when we would talk, you know you would be talking about issues and I'm like, okay, this is where the guide works, Like this is where you use the guy, this is how you apply this here.
Speaker 3:And and the other thing that I we saw. So I want to talk, I want to Travis, to talk a little bit about what that was like to start shifting, the way that you saw, things like starting to recognize okay. So I, this is a symptom and I it's not okay for me to do this. So how am I going to do things differently, Starting to recognize the symptoms for what they were. And then also, Sue, I would love to hear talk to you because there were some unhealthy patterns in your behavior.
Speaker 3:As a coping mechanism, you know, you were in survival mode and learning how to set healthier boundaries in your relationship so that you didn't sacrifice yourself in an effort to help your husband, Right? So let's start. Let's start with you, Travis, and talk about what that shift was like. It has been like because it's still ongoing. It takes time to change the way that we think about things and interact with things. It's very easy to fall back into those old patterns, right? So what was that? If you can talk about that or think about what that experience was, and then Sue will talk about your side of this.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's like I've always been somebody in general who takes responsibility for things. Like if things aren't going right, I'll take. Like OK, that's my fault, I'll fix it, even if it's not. Like that's just my default. Like if it's someone else's fault and the ball's been dropped, hey, whatever my fault that it didn't get done, let me just take care of it. So I have, I would say I've and this is going to sound contradictory, but I, I've owned the journey as my personal responsibility. Like if I say to sue, you should know that, whatever I said, that she said a second ago, like I said that today it's my responsibility to be self-aware and not say those things. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I realize that's not just a flip of a switch, that's just not. It's my responsibility. And now I'm never going to do it again because I'm aware.
Speaker 3:Wouldn't that be nice.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, yes, that's my responsibility. In the way that I've interacted for 19 years is a mental superhighway of interaction that I need to reprogram, and you know, this is my normal behavior. I need to reprogram some behavior over here and create a super mental highway this way, and that's going to take a while to do and there's going to be times I'm going to jump back on that mental highway and tell her that she should know that that we've been married for 19 years. What do you mean? Why are you asking me this question? Like, what is your problem? This is your fault. And then realize like, oh, my goodness, I'm sorry, try not to use any language in this podcast. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I was a jack-a to you this morning when I said that, because I do own it and I've really always owned it to the extent that I had the mental capability or mental capacity. I've always been like this is my fault. I may not say that in the moment, but even when I was on the mictal or unmedicated and I would just rage on Sue and yell at her or whatever the case may be, at some point I would come out of that and I would say I'm so sorry, it is me, this is not, would say I'm so sorry. Like it is me, this is not you, I'm so sorry. So I've I've kind of always known this is my responsibility. I think the challenge is is getting is, just realizing that it's not going to be an immediate change, and not to beat yourself up in the process. Just yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, one thing that I'd like I want to just interject here, because this is something we have this idea that once we know something, we have a responsibility to stop it right. And so when we don't, when we default to old behaviors, old patterns and stuff like that, we beat ourselves up and we feel guilty about it and we feel ashamed and that. And I still, I'll still default. I've been doing this for 15 years. I will still default to old patterns, like I have, especially with my daughter, my oldest daughter. We trigger each other big time, but poor kid is like.
Speaker 3:I've been trying really hard to help her through the healing process but she'll say things that trigger me and I'll say things that I don't mean. But I started recognizing that awareness is progress. So the fact that I'm aware that I've done something or said something that I should not have done or said, and I immediately say sorry and like and our thing is can I have a do over? And thankfully she's gotten to a point where she's like Okay, yeah, I'll let you have a do over. It took a long time for her to trust me enough to say yes, and so it just is a. It's a relationship pattern that has to evolve and trust develops as you start being aware and apologizing, and sincerely apologizing, and we go a long time, long periods of time now without these kinds of like issues, but every once in a while it'll crop up again. But I'm aware of it now and I'm like, oh, I did that wrong, I'm so sorry, that was bad, my bad. Can I have a do-over? And so I just want to encourage you, travis, because it's a really challenging thing, to reroute all of that and to relearn how to interact, how to stop.
Speaker 3:We're starting the mindfulness module coming January, and that's a huge game changer because you start to have a filter. I had no filter before. The thoughts would come and it was like the thoughts came right out of my mouth. There was no buffer zone, there was no thinking about things, and that mindfulness meditation created that space for me to actually evaluate. Like, is that a thought I want to express out loud? Or, you know, sometimes they're inside thoughts, not outside thoughts, right? So so, sue, let's, let's talk a little bit about the spouse's perspective.
Speaker 1:It's been really interesting having him in his stable place yeah and then like being on the slope down and we talked a lot about it yesterday and like I tend to do. Well, one of the biggest things is is, when I'm under stress, I want to be by myself. Well, one of the biggest things is, when I'm under stress, I want to be by myself. I'm like, I'm done, I'm caving. When he's under stress, he wants to be together.
Speaker 2:And so then the fact that's a great combination.
Speaker 1:It's a fantastic combination and we talked about yesterday and I finally just looked at him and I said I'm not going anywhere until you're mean. And as soon as you're mean, I want to run.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just want to run and I think just even being able to voice that Is is a major thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it is important that. Back to the analogy, and sorry to interrupt, but I just think this is important for anybody listening Like my version of not me. Back to my analogy with my bar down here is I didn't go to the strip club, so I'm not me, yeah, and her version.
Speaker 2:So, even though I mean I think I'm being mean, it doesn't matter what I think. Yeah, what matters is her perception of what I'm saying or doing, which is probably the perception of most people walking around that if they saw me interact that way, they'd be like, yeah, that wasn't real nice to your wife. And I'm like okay, I didn't realize that. So sorry to interrupt, I just think that's important.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's okay. Yeah, so I think you know, one of my biggest things is being able to find my voice again and not be so afraid. Because when you live with somebody who is triggered on the regular, I mean I would say the first six months of this year, a solid four months of that, like not every single day, but like I would say, you know, solid 60 to 80% of that time was him deciding every day if he was going to live or not, and that creates a lot of anger. And when the anger comes, I want to avoid the anger. I don't want to deal with anger, I just want to run. And not only do I want to run, I want to protect my kids. I don't want them to have to experience that. And so you really helped me a lot saying no, you've got to start speaking up, you've got to start, you've got to find your voice.
Speaker 1:And you know another thing that I think happens. And so if you are a spouse or if somebody significant in your life, you know it's like I. He would say what kind of needs do you have? I'm like I don't have any needs. I do not have space in my life for needs. I didn't because he had so many and it wasn't until he started cross titrating off of True Hope I mean on to True Hope, off of Lamictal, that things. Finally, we had some stable enough days where I could start seeking therapy and going okay. Now that I'm not in flight, or flight today, how do I deal with this? How do I, you know, how do I not live in survival mode when I'm in a relationship with somebody who is daily unstable?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and one of the things that I love I've loved working with the two of you together is that you both love each other dearly and you both are very supportive of each other, but you're also and you're also both ready to take responsibility for yourself, and it's and that looks. You know, setting healthy boundaries looks different on each side. And you're you're you saying that you didn't know how to express needs anymore. You didn't know how to even have needs anymore. That was very. That was exactly the same thing that happened with my husband. You know it was.
Speaker 3:I was this geeky will that was always getting the oil. I had no problem expressing my needs. I expressed them regularly, like I'm like I need this and I need this and you need to do this for me, and blah, you know I was going to therapy and I was going to the doctor and I was doing all the things and my husband was just hanging on for dear life Like he never knew what, what, who, who he was going to wake up to. He never knew what was going to. You know what was going to happen. And he got to the point where he just he doesn't. He didn't even know how to express needs. You know it was our therapist. We were in marriage counseling a few years back and the therapist was the one who, like, started asking him and he got super uncomfortable. You know she's like Well, what do you need, scott? You know I'm good, I'm. You know he just kept saying no-transcript, anger and resentment and frustration and all these negative feelings, and you don't know why they're there. You don't know why. You know my, for my husband it just became an emotional wall between the two of us, like there just was a wall that went up and there was no. It was a very difficult to connect with each other because he couldn't figure out how to put the wall down and I couldn't get around it Right and so, um.
Speaker 3:So I want to talk a little bit about you taught. You mentioned both of you talked about the cross titration experience. I would like to talk about that a little bit. One of the things that we do in the program is we start with the mood cycle survival guide, and that has to happen first Because you have to start recognizing how do I identify symptoms? You know, how do I? You have to start being able to identify symptoms. Who are the people I can ask for help. What are the healthy boundaries around that assistance Right yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'm really glad that in your mood cycle survival guide it includes who can I reach out to, because the spouse cannot be the only person. It's way too heavy, and you know, for me to have people that I can reach out to and say, hey, travis is not okay, can you please reach out to?
Speaker 2:him.
Speaker 1:You know we need help. That is huge, so thank you for including that.
Speaker 3:Well, and one of the things that I think is it I had to recognize is how do I create healthy boundaries around that assistance? Because if you're constantly reaching out to people only when you're in crisis, you burn those bridges Like people will be like don't answer that call, like we can't talk to that person. They're only calling me when they're in crisis and I can't. I just don't have the bandwidth for it anymore. And so, learning how to identify a group of people and even even with your therapist and your doctor, like what is their role? What is it that I talked to them? You know, when do I reach out to that person? And and then also starting to recognize what are actually, what are the symptoms, and I, you know that's one thing that we talked about.
Speaker 3:When you're going through cross titration A lot of people don't it feels very scary. When I went through it, I had no idea what was going on, so it was just like white knuckling it through the process you know it was I had no idea what was happening. Every time I would start to experience symptoms, I'd freak out and think, ah, it's not working anymore. You know, and and I call true hope, that was the only person. You know only people I had to call and they were like okay, no, this is over medication, no, this is med withdrawal. You know they would be able to tell me, but this is one of the things that I love about helping other people is I can tell you okay, this is, this is what you're going through when you go through over. When you experienced over medication for you, you got agitated and fatigued. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Um. I can't remember Maybe I wasn't very irritable, very agitated and irritable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and so. So you would go through that and then, then it took the first couple of times, if I remember correctly, you weren't calling True Hope, you were just suffering. And I would talk to you and I'd be like, oh, travis, call True Hope, this is our medication, because they feel so normal. The symptoms feel normal, that is, even though they're uncomfortable, even though people are suffering. That's the way that you're used to, you're used to living that way, and so it's really hard to recognize this. These are symptoms and so, recognizing, you're experiencing over medication now.
Speaker 3:So, as soon as you started, we talked about that. And after the first couple times, as soon as you started feeling that I'm like, as soon as you experience that, call true hope. This is ever medication, this is what your brain does when it's over medicated. And then we figured out the timing. For once you titrated down from the medication. You know, once you went down a little bit, how long did that withdrawal experience last? And I think for you it was about 72 hours. Is that correct? Yeah, and so what we did was you. We developed a plan. You developed a plan for what you were going to do for that time, so that you minimized the impact on your family. So do you want to talk a little bit about what that, what that experience was like and how did you? I want to hear from travis and sue about that.
Speaker 2:you know changes that you experienced in that sure, um, I would say during that, when we I think what brought it to kind of a point where like oh, my goodness, goodness, we've got to have a plan, is I was in the 72-hour window of being not stable, very irritable, just not a fun person to be around, like a dog barking could set me off like in a bad way. We had some friends in town from out of town that came to church and Sue invited them to come back to our house and bring their kids. Because I've always like we bought a house with an in-ground pool and I've always said like I don't like am I going to get in? Sure, I just want kids to come over to our house and have fun. So in Sue's mind she's like let me help track. And in my sick, sick, not regulated mind I'm like she not like what, what she just said earlier.
Speaker 2:In my mind, even though I haven't said it, I'm like she knows this is a bad idea, but she did it anyhow, like, and I left our house like with them left, didn't say bye, I just said to her I'm leaving, I can't deal with this. I'm going to the beach because we don't live on the ocean but we live like a 10-minute drive from the beach. So I'm going to the beach. Call me when everybody's gone, I don't care what time it is and I will admit it like I'm not telling you to kick them out, I'm just it. I'm not telling you to kick them out, I'm just telling you I'm leaving. I can't deal with these seven kids running around our house and these four adults that I'm friends with, but right now I don't want to speak to them, I'm just leaving, and I think we talked to you about that. And that was when it's like wait a minute, this is you guys need to see that Travis gets over-medicated about every two weeks.
Speaker 2:And then you bring the Lamictal down the amount that True Hope said, which was 50 milligrams at a time with me, which I could be completely different with someone else and there's about a 72-hour window where I'm just an irritable, challenging to deal with or live with person.
Speaker 2:And part of the plan was if Sue wanted to have people over because that's something that she always enjoys and something that I enjoy most of the time, but not always Then okay, then Sue just knew that if she had someone over during that 72 hour window, it meant I was not going to be home. And once we kind of had that plan that gave Sue the freedom to do what she wants to do, but kind of with the knowledge that, like hey, if people come over, travis, just let Travis know up front. Like hey, people are coming over so that I can leave prior to them getting here and just be gone and go walk on the beach and try to stay in my happy space. And part of the plan even became like, just during that three day period, like whatever responsibilities I had, just they went to the side and we worked I can't think of the correct term, michelle, but the power priorities, power priorities, like we have power priorities, which is pretty much making sure that I'm eating healthy.
Speaker 2:yeah, that was my responsibility during that three days. Everything else just there was like zero expectations of me during that time, because if there was expectations I was going to screw them up anyhow. So it was just best to have, um, to have no or very, very minimal expectations for that three days, and then I would stabilize and I'd be good for about another two weeks.
Speaker 3:So once you help us kind of create that plan, which was just that I go down to power priorities and whatever's on my schedule gets cleared so that I have no responsibilities during that time, yeah, I think, if I remember correctly, also, that we talked a little bit about having somebody else, like a man, that you could talk to, right, so that it wasn't all on your wife to support you through that that if you were feeling this agitation you needed to vent or talk or something. You were going to have a buddy that you designated. That was somebody that was going to be on your team.
Speaker 2:Is that? Am I remembering that right? Yeah, you are, and it's funny that you said michelle, because I'm meeting with with two people on that list tomorrow. One of them just texted me back I saw that and he's somebody that knows, like he knows the delusion I lived. He knows there's no, but both of the guys I'm meeting with tomorrow have there. There's no secrets I have with them. They know everything. And I reached out to them this morning because I'm like, wait a minute, this is not actually one of them. He and I have been communicating for a week now and it just happens to be that we're getting together tomorrow. The other one I reached out to this morning because I'm like I'm starting to believe a delusion that I know is not real.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I need to reach out. Okay, I can't control. I can't control what I'm eating right now in a healthy way. I can't take true hope supplements. Okay, what else is in my mood cycle Survival guide? Reach out to a network of people like do like now that I'm starting to get some energy and go for a walk tomorrow, like do things so that. So that's part of the mood cycle survival guide. Um, and it's just funny, the people, um, two of the people on that list that are people that like know everything about me I'm meeting with tomorrow, kind of like real world example right now, to help deal with symptoms that have presented themselves, given the cancer battle that I'm fighting and how that's caused me to have to almost put my mental wellness journey not on pause, but kind of cause.
Speaker 3:It's lower on the priority list than than like physically surviving, like your body.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, but part of that too is okay. How do I best manage? Like the last thing it like I'm, I'm scared, yeah, to die in a manic place. Like I don't want to. I don't want the cancer journey to cause me not to be able to manage my illness. Excuse me in a way where I'm not a good husband and then.
Speaker 2:I die Like I want to I guess part of the cancer journey like I, just I want to live well. I want to be a good husband, a good father, a good friend, regardless of what I've got going on, and that I don't know why that just hit me like so suddenly, but it's like I don't, probably because I'm like today's the first day I can tell you I've had the like.
Speaker 2:Holy crap, I'm beginning to feel like this delusion is real and I know it's not and I don't want, I don't want To die and I don't want to die, having expressed that on the last day on earth and when I say that I don't like part of the cancer journey too is just realizing like we're all going to die. And I know that seems so logical, like everybody knows that until you're, like, really faced with your own mortality the way I've been, I think most of us think that we're going to die when we're 102 years old, after seeing our great grandkids born. It's going to be an amazing day. I'm going to die at three o'clock in the morning, um, in our sleep, peacefully and like, even though I worked a job where I knew that wasn't true, like I didn't really know that that applied to me too, and being faced with my mortality. I don't want to have a bad interaction with Sue based off of me believing a delusion and leave my house and die in a car wreck.
Speaker 3:Yeah, really quick, sue. Before you I want to hear your answer about the Mood Cycle Survival Guide. But since you brought this up again, travis, I want to address it really quickly and I think that it's. I hope it's okay that I do this on the podcast because I feel like it's beneficial to the audience as well.
Speaker 3:But one of the things you said that you have an appointment coming up with your therapist and you do not just EMDR but you do, you do IFS, internal family systems, informed EMDR and and I think it'll be really beneficial to bring this delusion up in the therapy session because there's a protector part, there is something in your, in your experience, in your mind, that is trying to protect you. There is something that it senses as danger and I think being forced faced with your own mortality is making you feel less secure, right. So you're, there is some insecurity that's coming into your life right now and this protector part, developed probably in your childhood, that is, is trying to protect you and is saying, saying you're, you know there's danger here, there's danger here and sue's danger here and Sue's going to leave you and you know like, so I'm really thrilled that I know this is.
Speaker 3:I'm not thrilled that you're having this delusion again, but I'm thrilled that you're in this space, because I think that you're actually going to be able to make some progress on figuring out what the actual underlying source of that delusion is. It's not. I think the fact that your brain is not getting what it needs to function in a healthy way is contributing to it, but it is not the source. It is not the source of the delusion. The source of the delusion is a protector part in your mind that is stepping in to do a job that doesn't belong to it, and so, as you work with your therapist, it's going to be really interesting for you to be able to actually get to the root of what, why that protective part developed in your brain, right, yes, yep, and I'm excited.
Speaker 2:But it's funny you say that because there's two therapists that that I work with, that both of both of us have worked with.
Speaker 2:One of them does ifs informed emdr, and that therapist has helped me break free from the delusion that I live under, more so than the other therapist.
Speaker 2:The other therapist does cognitive behavioral therapy, which is great, and I really feel like if I hadn't like I've been seeing that therapist since 2015, have a great relationship with him and I feel like he probably built a foundation that allowed the IFS informed EMDR therapist to springboard from that and help me break free from the delusion. But, sue, this morning, when she said, are you going to reach out to Kevin? I just said I talked to him with this delusion for nine years and I would walk in his office with the delusion and I would leave with the delusion and I will have just decided to stop arguing with him, like no, I've got to talk to Jennifer. Yeah, now with this delusion, like Kevin can help with other things. So, and I think that's important too, knowing there's different modalities and trying different modalities and even now I still see Kevin is very beneficial now today. Yeah, just not with the delusion piece of it.
Speaker 3:Well, because that part resides in your subconscious mind. Anytime our conscious mind and our subconscious mind fight, it's not a fair fight, because the subconscious mind will always win, the subconscious mind will always win, and so it's so important to get to what is happening in the subconscious mind. Why is it sensing danger? And what is happening in the subconscious mind? Why is it sensing danger? And what is it in your life, in your experience, in your childhood, in your youth, in your young adult years? What is it that caused that part to develop?
Speaker 3:Something triggered that development of that part, and that's why it's so important for us to not call these label these things as bipolar disorder, depression or anxiety, because it is. It is taking the power away from you and taking away your ability to actually do anything about it. It's making you feel like you have this medical condition that you don't have any control over, and that's not true. If you go to, you know you're doing the work. You're putting forth the effort to figure out what is actually causing this symptom to occur. Why do I have this delusion? It is not some kind of you know medical condition that I don't have any control over. There is a reason. My brain was trying to protect me. It developed this protective part, and so now I need to go in and actually do the part, do the work to tell my, you know, help my mind, resolve whatever the trauma was that developed that protector part, and then the symptom will go away. It won't. It'll know that it doesn't need to do that job anymore, you know.
Speaker 3:So I'm actually kind of not excited. This sounds like a mad scientist kind of thing, like I'm so excited to say, but I'm. I'm looking forward to to seeing how that plays out for you, travis, because you're in a better place now. One of the things that's really challenging with the psychotropic drugs is that it disrupts the normal function of your brain and it makes it very difficult to process emotions in a healthy way, and so that's why it can be very difficult to do proactive and effective therapy when you are on drugs, because your brain is not processing more emotions in a normal way anymore. And so now that you're, even though you're in this really rough place where your brain, you know your body's fighting for survival, your brain is at least not mucked up by the medication, right, and so now you can actually go in and actually process these emotions in a healthy way, so I'm I feel very hopeful about that.
Speaker 2:No, and I'm hopeful too. And just to speak to what you just said for listeners, like when I was on Lamictal, I spent nine years in and out of therapists, knowing that, knowing that I had a delusion, just didn't know like the extent of it, if that makes sense and I wanted it gone. It's not like I was in denial Like this is. I didn't know the extent of it, if that makes sense and I wanted it gone. It's not like I was in denial. I didn't think, oh my goodness, I'm not living a delusion. I knew deep down that the lens that I had, that she wanted to be married to someone else, was not true. I knew deep down that wasn't true and I wanted it gone. And I worked for nine years. We spent tens of thousands of dollars with therapists wanting that gone and once I came off of Lamictal like it was gone within a week. And that was with therapy, not just because I had also started with a therapist as we were coming off Lamictal towards the end of that, coming off a mictal towards the end of that. So, but combining the right therapist modality with not being on medication, because we learned, I think, through you and through others, including the nurse practitioner.
Speaker 2:The nurse practitioner that managed my medication is the psychotropic medications kind of lock thought patterns in place and makes it where, like this delusion that I had was just like. It was like locked in my brain and there was nothing that was going to unlock it and let it free until we got the medication out of my system and that kind of is what at least unlocked it. And then the therapy is what kind of? Set me free from that? And I say, set me free from the delusion. Clearly I'm not completely free from that. And I say set me free from the delusion, clearly I'm not completely free from it. So I'm sure we'll get to process that and figure out. I mean, just what you said, just like what part of me is showing up? What is it trying to protect?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like it's trying to help me somehow. So what is it? Where is it trying to help me? So we can figure out how to help me in a different way and let that part know that. Hey, I'm OK, you don't need to show up, at least not right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, sue. So what is your? What was your experience like as you? You talked a little bit about how much you appreciated being not the only one up on you know to to support him, how much you appreciated being not the only one up on you know to to support him. But what was it like like actually being able to see him starting to see, like okay, here's the pattern, you know. Did it change your relationship at all? Like, did it help you feel more confident that things are actually going to improve? Like tell me what your experience was as he started. Like utilizing that mood cycle survival guide and recognizing symptoms and coming up with a plan to deal with them. That didn't involve you all the time.
Speaker 1:I'm very grateful for that. I mean, it's a. It is a lot of weight to carry. It's so heavy and you know, it's not only the weight of being the only one that he wants to talk to, but it's also I have children, they have emotional needs. I need to make sure I've got capacity for that, you know, and work and that type of thing. So, just like from a capacity issue, it was very helpful and made things seem not as heavy when he started the cross titration.
Speaker 1:That was interesting because he could say one sentence and immediately I knew that things were bad, things were about to get bad and like there's two or three things that if he says those I'm like okay, that's that's total red flag. And one of them was I am trying to help you. If he says I am trying to help you, that means he is feeling insecure and he is. You know that's that's a huge scream I am insecure right now. And if I say I don't want help, then he goes. You know, on the rant about I am trying to be helpful to you, you know, then it's a rant that comes. So it was great to be able to just look at him and say I think it's time to call true hope, yeah. Just look at him and say I think it's time to call true hope. Yeah, yeah, it's time to call true hope is less scary to say then. Okay, you are completely overmedicated.
Speaker 3:Right, because it's it's really hard. I think we talked about this a little bit. I, my husband and I, had to come up with a way for him to approach me that I wasn't going to bite his head off. You know I would ask him. You know you can see things that I can't, can you let me know? And the first few times that he did that, I was like you know, and he's like I'm not doing that again, that's a trap, like I am not going to help you, you're on your own sister. And but I but I started recognizing okay, I know my husband loves me and I know he's trying to help and so you know, he would say we came up for him, for us, we would. He would say, um, I'm seeing something, are you open to hearing it? And I had to tell myself there were times when my I could feel my chest get tight and I'd feel my defenses go up and I'd be like oh, you see something, do you? But but I, but I, I had to, like I had to learn how to say okay, I know he loves me, I've asked for this help, I need to be okay with this. And there were times when I'm like Nope, I'm not in good place to hear that right now. And he'd be like, all right, I'm walking away, then Like I'm not staying for this. And then there were times when I'd be like, okay, I'm ready to hear, I want to hear what it is. And it was so helpful to be able to have because he could see things like you were saying. He could see things that I couldn't see. And it was so helpful to be able to get because he usually saw things way earlier than I did. At some time. I usually was in like massive crisis before I recognize that I'm not doing great, you know, but he could see like warning signs. You know, if I started having big ideas, if I was like wanting to add a bunch of stuff to my you know my schedule because I was I was just feeling good, like I'm like I'm good, I'm like I'm super productive, and he'd be like, ah, this is, this is not bode well for our next couple of weeks, right, Um, so, oh, man, I want to just keep. I Travis you probably, right, I think I'm going to have to do another session with you guys. I think I'm going to have to do a section in like one just with Sue by herself so that we can get from spouse's perspective. But, um, so I guess maybe the the thing that we'll finish with today is, if there's somebody out there that's listening to this, has been nervous about, like, maybe trying this because there's so much of our conditioning that's led us to believe that this is a medical condition.
Speaker 3:When you get diagnosed with bipolar, you have a medical condition. You need medication. And even though we don't feel better on medication I did not ever feel better on medication there's, like I don't know if it's a placebo effect or something it's there's some part of our brain that is psychologically dependent on the medication. There's a psychological dependence, thinking I need that. The doctor told me I need that If I stop taking it, things are going to get so much worse, even though it's hard to imagine them getting worse, like it's hard to imagine things getting worse than wanting to go to the hospital and feeling like you need to end your life right. But we are so conditioned to believe that it's a medical condition. We don't have any control. We'll have it for the rest of our lives. We have to have medication. What would you say to somebody who is, like, feeling hopeless? They're feeling like the best I'm going to ever be able to expect out of my life is just learning how to suffer. Well with this. What would you say to them? What?
Speaker 2:would you say to them? I would say there is hope. I would say find a psychiatrist that will support you, which I know could be challenged to own it yourself and get that. If your psychiatrist doesn't support you coming off of meds and going on to True Hope that there is a psychiatrist in your town that would support that, you just may have to go through six or seven or eight or not. You may have to go through a lot of psychiatrists or whoever manages your meds in order to do that. I would also say Google True Hope, go to their website.
Speaker 2:It was started by a psychiatrist that experienced a tremendous amount of loss. I know that there's a podcast episode with them. There's a lot of hope, but part of it is you have to own your journey. You have to understand that your choices and your actions have gotten you to where you are and that if you don't change them, they're going to keep getting you back to the same place. So join the tribe. It's whatever, however much it is I don't know. Michelle should charge more for it than she does. So join the tribe. That's a great first step.
Speaker 2:And then there is hope. Find a psychiatrist that will support you coming off of medication. I promise you can do it. And then research, um true hope, and start, start the process after creating your mood cycle, survival guide, after, after doing the homework, after owning that, knowing that it's going to be rough, coming off the meds and setting up a foundation so that you can successfully do that. I feel like I've said it like three times, but I promise you there is hope. There is hope for a better life. It really does exist. So just believe that and take the next step, which is join the Upsiders tribe.
Speaker 2:And Michelle did not ask us to say that, has not asked me to say that, she did not ask us to be interviewed. We asked her if we could do this in hopes that it does help somebody. So, first step join the Upsiders tribe. Second step find whoever it is that manages your medications. If they support you coming off of those, great. If they don't, great. And Michelle, I'm sure, could get into more details. That's probably going to be challenging, because a psychiatrist that says, yes, you can come off meds and then if there's something bad that happens, they could be held liable for that in certain places, I'm sure. So a psychiatrist is going to be scared to say, yes, you can come off of meds, even though the meds they have you on, there's a chance. Those meds cause suicide, cause some pretty bad things, but the psychiatrist isn't liable, because all those side effects are disclosed in whatever pamphlet it is that they give you, that the side effects are 10 times worse than what you're experiencing anyhow.
Speaker 1:So it's already gone.
Speaker 3:It's already gone. No, that's exactly. No, that's great. And, sue, do you have any final words?
Speaker 1:Yeah, first thing is, as Travis mentioned, it's going to be hard. Well, so is living like you're living. Yeah, um, living in a place where you know it's like. I don't experience what Travis experienced. I have not experienced what you experience, but watching it from an outsider's point of view, I can't imagine, I just can't imagine, can't imagine like one word being enough or one sentence being enough for somebody to want to end their life. You know, that's not something, so your life is probably hard anyway. Also, if you've got somebody willing to come along with you, bring them along with you, because I think that's really helpful. And if you're on the other side, if you're the spouse side, the spouse side, the, the friend side, whatever that is, um, you need help too, because because you don't go, you don't live in a battlefield and not get and not and not receive injuries, and, yeah, when you live in a war zone, it there's a cost.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I need to have you on too. The only other spouse that we've had on is my husband. Well, that's not true. There was one other really really early on. But it's not a common thing to be able to find somebody who's been through this and made it out to the other side. I think I wouldn't have blamed my husband if he'd left in 2008 when I had my breakdown. That was the worst year ever and you know I I will forever be grateful that he stayed. But it's not an easy thing and and I'm you know it's been incredible to actually see not just Travis's healing, but to see you as well, you know, to watch you learn how to speak up for yourself and learn how to hold healthy boundaries and, you know, make better choices that were actually better for you and for Travis, not just for you. You know it was better for your marriage, it was better for him. So I, if you're open to it, I'd love to have you on again to you know, to talk about that from the spouse's perspective.
Speaker 1:But one other thing that was a huge, I think, changed my perspective. Huge was there was one day I called you. I was like I texted you and I was like, can you talk for a minute? And and I was like, can he control this? I just need to know, can he control this, cause he's ranting all over the place. Can he control this? And you said yes, he can, he just doesn't know it yet. And you saying that was like, okay, all right, so you know, look for your hope. Okay, all right, so you know, look for your hope, Look for those things that bring the hope. But yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one more quick thing for those of you who don't have a supportive spouse friend whoever I think we're the only people in the Upsiders tribe that I'm aware of that show up together. Most people are just by themselves. So I don't want you to go like, well, my wife isn't supportive or my husband isn't supportive. That's not for me. We're the anomaly, we're not the norm. So if you don't have a supportive spouse, still jump in and I promise you will benefit from it and hopefully through that your spouse can become more supportive and they'll see some, hopefully see some changes in you and you can strengthen that spouse friend, whatever relationship you have, to help with some support.
Speaker 3:Awesome. You guys are so amazing. Thank you so much for offering to do this. This has been an incredible conversation. I really appreciate both of you.
Speaker 1:Well, I will tell you, we are held up by an amazing community. Our church is like family. I've never seen anything like it. We went to Chapel Hill yesterday. There were three different moms who were at our house at different times, loving on our kids, and if it was not for the community that I have, I cannot even imagine being able to function and having my best friend on the phone too. But yeah, just like.
Speaker 2:And you're part of that community and you are part of that you are part of that community. You are. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:And yeah, god has provided. He provides Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right, until next time, upsiders. Hey, thanks for joining us today. If you're ready to start on your path to wellness with bipolar, go to myupsideofdowncom and get your free mood cycle survival guide four steps to successfully navigate bipolar mood swings. If you're ready for more, check out the map to Wellness. Until next time, upsiders.